Gravity

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djross
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Re: Gravity

Post by djross »

Stewball wrote:There are some of the best overall filmmakers ever working today in both Hollywood and in Indys. We tend to forget all the crap in the past, but bore in on it today.


Certainly there are some great filmmakers around, but it may be worth seeing any films whatsoever by, let's say, Robert Bresson, Luis Buñuel, Jacques Demy, Vittorio De Sica, Jean-Luc Godard, Howard Hawks, Akira Kurosawa, Louis Malle, Max Ophüls, Yasujiro Ozu, Satyajit Ray, Eric Rohmer, Preston Sturges, Andrei Tarkovsky, François Truffaut, or Ingmar Bergman, before coming to any final conclusions.

Stewball
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Re: Gravity

Post by Stewball »

djross wrote:
Stewball wrote:There are some of the best overall filmmakers ever working today in both Hollywood and in Indys. We tend to forget all the crap in the past, but bore in on it today.


Certainly there are some great filmmakers around, but it may be worth seeing any films whatsoever by, let's say, Robert Bresson, Luis Buñuel, Jacques Demy, Vittorio De Sica, Jean-Luc Godard, Howard Hawks, Akira Kurosawa, Louis Malle, Max Ophüls, Yasujiro Ozu, Satyajit Ray, Eric Rohmer, Preston Sturges, Andrei Tarkovsky, François Truffaut, or Ingmar Bergman, before coming to any final conclusions.


Not being that familiar with many of those (my anti-foreign language/subtitle bias y'know), you could drive a truck through the many gaps between my worthwhile films of the two or three I do know. Howard Hawks? Do I detect a French bias there? :roll: Glad to see you didn't include Fellini at least. Louis Malle might be worth exploring, any recommendations there (preferably in English, though for a really worthwhile effort I could probably convince myself to endure the subtitles?) A movie heavy in dialogue with subtitles is my only DOA.

Suture Self
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Re: Gravity

Post by Suture Self »

Uh, what's your beef with subtitles? Does it have to do with things being lost in translation, or do you just dislike reading while watching a movie?

Stewball
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Re: Gravity

Post by Stewball »

FarCryss wrote:Uh, what's your beef with subtitles? Does it have to do with things being lost in translation, or do you just dislike reading while watching a movie?


Both but mostly the latter. I dislike it because it takes your eyes away from what's going on on the screen, sometimes flashing it so fast you don't even get a chance to look up. It's particularly troubling with dramatic, rapid fire dialogue and interferes with comedic timing. The best I've seen it done was with Slumdog Millionaire where they put the subtitles up on the screen just off from the main point of focus. I don't see why people think subbing is better than dubbing which could certainly be done much better than the out-of-sync examples we're all familiar with. I've actually seen some argue that subbing doesn't interfere with the actors nuances. The nuances are there to see with dubbing, but are often missed with subbing. And if the nuance involves a play on words in a foreign language that can't be translated, it's lost in either case. (Ultimately, the problem is different languages so the solution is for everybody learn English. 8-) ) On the serious side, if I lived in Italy, lets say, as much as I like movies and with all the English language films out there, I'd make a point of learning it. And I could increase my learning by watching those movies.

There's no evidence I can point to, but I suspect that around the world dubbing is greatly preferred by non-English speaking patrons, Europe having the lowest preference for dubbing. Also, subtitles have acquired a long-standing degree of art house, purist snob appeal for the same reasons behind all unjustified arrogance--in this case because you don't have to be able to read to understand dubbing. Ergo, if you prefer subtitles, you're proving your superior to the illiterate, and by association, those who share that preference.

edkrak
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Re: Gravity

Post by edkrak »

Stewball wrote:There's no evidence I can point to, but I suspect that around the world dubbing is greatly preferred by non-English speaking patrons, Europe having the lowest preference for dubbing. Also, subtitles have acquired a long-standing degree of art house, purist snob appeal for the same reasons behind all unjustified arrogance--in this case because you don't have to be able to read to understand dubbing. Ergo, if you prefer subtitles, you're proving your superior to the illiterate, and by association, those who share that preference.


Huh, what? Preferences for the form of translation really vary from country to country in Europe. In Scandinavia & Netherlands everything's subbed, Germans dub everything (even films in cinemas), in Eastern Europe most people watch films with voice-over. I'd say it's more to do with what people get used to watch on tv in their childhood.
And about arthouse audiences, I can't speak for everybody but I think's it's more about watching film in a form as close to original as possible, not about some sort of snobishness. And dubbing often feels just so weird. Seriously can you imagine watching let's say Bogart dubbed in Cantonese? There's also one more thing - with dubbing it's very easy to completely change meaning of what's being said and that happens often. Sometimes it's only a joke lost in translation, but from time to time translators decide to completely change the film plot because of political correctness or some other idiotic reason. For example "Angel Cop" is a series about secret Jewish government controlling the world. In VHS times it was released on American market with some dubbing made up by "translators" that had nothing to do with original story (so there's no mention of Jews at all). The same happened with subbed dvd but at least now people were able to realise (thanks to Japanese soundtrack and fansubbers) what's the real plot and that distributors completely changed the meaning of some episodes.

Stewball
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Re: Gravity

Post by Stewball »

edkrak wrote:Huh, what? Preferences for the form of translation really vary from country to country in Europe. In Scandinavia & Netherlands everything's subbed, Germans dub everything (even films in cinemas), in Eastern Europe most people watch films with voice-over. I'd say it's more to do with what people get used to watch on tv in their childhood.


As I said, it' just my guess. I know I have no bias induced from my childhood since I never watched subs until I was in college and dubs later than those. What can I say.

And about arthouse audiences, I can't speak for everybody but I think's it's more about watching film in a form as close to original as possible, not about some sort of snobishness.


A bias is generated for whatever reason nonetheless. I'd say it was 100:1 subs vs. dubs in US theaters, art-houses or otherwise, art-houses being about the only place you see either (thank goodness).

And dubbing often feels just so weird. Seriously can you imagine watching let's say Bogart dubbed in Cantonese?


No, I don't speak Cantonese. And I'm sorry, both would be weird for me with either, as they are now, if I didn't understand English--ergo.......

There's also one more thing - with dubbing it's very easy to completely change meaning of what's being said and that happens often. Sometimes it's only a joke lost in translation, but from time to time translators decide to completely change the film plot because of political correctness or some other idiotic reason. For example "Angel Cop" is a series about secret Jewish government controlling the world. In VHS times it was released on American market with some dubbing made up by "translators" that had nothing to do with original story (so there's no mention of Jews at all). The same happened with subbed dvd but at least now people were able to realise (thanks to Japanese soundtrack and fansubbers) what's the real plot and that distributors completely changed the meaning of some episodes.


The same outcome is equally as possible for either format, and as easy or difficult to post corrections for. If dubbing is the more popular format in a given location, I'm sure the "fandubbers" would rule with the exposes.

Suture Self
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Re: Gravity

Post by Suture Self »

A conservative American who prefers not to watch foreign films with subtitles? Not surprising. No use trying to convince you otherwise, I guess, though you are missing out on a lot of amazing movies. I would also consider YOU to be the snob, because as far as I'm concerned, snobbery is linked to principled exclusion, and this is a Grade A case of principled exclusion on your part.

Suture Self
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Re: Gravity

Post by Suture Self »

Dubbing, for obvious reasons, will always fail to capture the inflection and timbre of the original actors. If something is dubbed, it's a completely different performance, and if it's not dubbed under the direction of the original filmmaker, then it would be disingenuous to say the original filmmaker is the one solely responsible for the direction of the film's actors. It means there are two actors for each role, and at least two directors for each dubbed movie. I dislike dubbing for these reasons.

*I don't fault a lot of Italian cinema for this because the dubbing is usually done by the actors who play the role on screen and is usually directed by the same director.

MmzHrrdb
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Re: Gravity

Post by MmzHrrdb »

FarCryss wrote:snobbery is linked to principled exclusion


No, it's not. With that logic, you could argue that anybody who's ever refused to watch a movie for any reason whatsoever is a snob.

td888
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Re: Gravity

Post by td888 »

Stewball wrote:
(Ultimately, the problem is different languages so the solution is for everybody learn English. 8-) )

I assume you are joking, but I found this very offensive.

Stewball wrote: On the serious side, if I lived in Italy, lets say, as much as I like movies and with all the English language films out there, I'd make a point of learning it.

For the exactly the same reason you should learn (for example) French because there are some great French movies out there.

Any movie I watch (whether American, Korean or French), I prefer to watch with an English subtitle (my mother language is Dutch). I have seen dubbed movies, but I find them terrible. I rather see the actors talking their native language, it makes watching the movie more natural.

I am surprised you're not watching foreign movies because you don't like subtitles. You are seriously missing out on some fantastic movies. It's like refusing to go to foreign restaurants because you can't read the menu. The food can still be enjoyed....

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