PTA

[3dRevelation]

Hate to say it but it was PTA's worst

I agree. Jorg, The Master is nothing like The Tree of Life thankfully (I really didn't like The Tree of Life), so you don't have to worry, but the story is far less engaging than PTA's other films. I loved the acting, I loved PTA's direction, and I loved the cinematography, and Johnny Greenwood's score is good, but none of that can really make up for the lackluster story that is presented. There are some really good moments, but otherwise it is pretty much unexciting.

[Pickpocket]

Hate to say it but it was PTA's worst

Ok now I'm officially worried.. So did he pull a Tree of Life on us with a hipster collection of mediating moments? Was really expecting sort of like a spiritual TWBB with a strong narrative but most people say it's not.

"The Master’s disjointed narrative and the meandering, plotless, semi-episodic nature of the flick doesn’t lend itself to being fully absorbed in a single viewing, certainly."

I don't know what's happening with many directors these days.. Maybe they are just too full of themselves..

It definitely wasn't as bad as The Tree of Life but you go in with such high hopes with these directors that it's almost like you are bound to be disappointed. I just thought everything he had to say was obvious and the story didn't really exist.

[Jorg]

Hate to say it but it was PTA's worst

I agree. Jorg, The Master is nothing like The Tree of Life thankfully (I really didn't like The Tree of Life), so you don't have to worry, but the story is far less engaging than PTA's other films. I loved the acting, I loved PTA's direction, and I loved the cinematography, and Johnny Greenwood's score is good, but none of that can really make up for the lackluster story that is presented. There are some really good moments, but otherwise it is pretty much unexciting.

Well, me and Gideon have finally seen it and we've been discussing it all night.. In the end I guess it comes down to the following questions:

- What is the real story here and how good is it really? This quote from PTA leads us to believe that it's really just about the 'love story' and that all other explanations/theories (from critics, fans, etc.) can simply be disregarded:

"After collecting all this footage, when we got into the editing room it became clear that the marching orders, the party line to attack, was the love story... two guys just desperate for each other, but doomed. Sadly doomed."

- Is it possible to put characters above story and still end up with a great movie? (maybe think of some examples)

- Are the themes kept intentionally elusive and are they hidden under the surface and waiting to be discovered in subsequent watches? or does PTA use ambiguity to hide his inability to create a well crafted story that successfully incorporates these themes? So in short, did or did he not take a real stance on the various themes? Did he explore them with sufficient depth?

Also when looking at another quote from PTA:

"I'm not trying to be arty or elusive or anything. Where we come from in the editing room can sometimes be intellectual, but more often it's pretty instinctual. More often, if you looked under the hood, you'd see how amazingly disorganized and confused we all were."

We are led to believe that he wasn't sure yet what he wanted to tell until he finished editing the movie?

So is this PTA's first true art house (aka pretentious) movie where people can assign their own meanings to everything but no clear explanation is offered by the director himself? So maybe it's a lot like Tree of Life in that regard after all. Very instinctual filmmaking (which seems to be unlike his previous films + Kubrick etc.).

Anyway, I'm sure that we'll be watching the movie again soon with the coming Blu-ray release, but so far it's very difficult to take a stance on this movie. For me personally, it still works very well as a character piece which incorporates lighter themes such as finding the right path and dealing with obsessions, but people yearning for a true great story may be rightfully disappointed.

[3dRevelation]

I actually can't wait for The Master to come out on DVD/BluRay. As much as I thought it was PTA's worst (his worst however is better than many directors' best films), the film has still kind of stayed with me since I've seen it. I'm hoping on a re-watch that it will redeem itself. I'm also interested to see some deleted scenes, because I have a feeling this had a lot of them, and that last quote from PTA about editing is very interesting.

[Jorg]

I actually can't wait for The Master to come out on DVD/BluRay. As much as I thought it was PTA's worst (his worst however is better than many directors' best films), the film has still kind of stayed with me since I've seen it. I'm hoping on a re-watch that it will redeem itself. I'm also interested to see some deleted scenes, because I have a feeling this had a lot of them, and that last quote from PTA about editing is very interesting.

Well, I saw it again now.. I couldn't find any hidden meanings, and I don't think there's any point in (over)analyzing the movie.. The 'love story' aspect also seems a bit tacked on perhaps, because it doesn't really seem to reveal itself until the final scenes.. Wouldn't surprise me if PTA did some re-shoots and added these scenes when he found out that the other aspects (Revealing the inside workings of a cult.. Freddie trying to find a meaning in his life and dealing with his obsessions, with the help of the Cause..) didn't come out as strong as he expected.. At least, that's what the interviews seem to hint at.. The movie definitely has its moments, but it's clear to me that PTA wasn't able to deliver a truly compelling story this time around, and because of that it's a bit disappointing. If the story was better, it could have been a masterpiece like TWBB. So personally I'd give it 75-80 score, but I can see how other people give it a lower rating based on their overall disappointment.

[ayall]

I might as well post a comment since the screener is out.

I mean it's not TWBB, but it would have been impossible for it to amount to that.

I think the movie was great, up to par on all that is PTA from a film technique and sound editing.
I think both Hoffman and Phoenix performed phenomenal.

The real issue with the movie is the story.
Perhaps because it hits to close to home with a lot of Hollywood personnel faith.
This was appearing to be a movie about L Ron Hubbard and by default Scientology.
To those less familiar with SoCal, Scientology is not to be taken lightly in LA LA Land.
I actually could, by a stretch of the imagination, compare this movie, in story, to that of The Passion of the Christ.

After watching the movie and fully comprehend the story, the Master is about much more then a specific religion or belief, and as the movie obviously concludes it's about finding your personal Master.

The story was presented slowly, and i really liked that the pace used so wonderfully matched the score.
Unlike PTAs other films, i think this movie might have had "too many" scenes, and it was hard to piece together a cohesive story. The Segment transitions weren't very smooth, and i almost felt like some were misplaced (Pulp Fiction style).

None the less, it was a very beautiful film, highly entertaining and i think PTA isn't getting the credit largely due to the stab at Scientology and the glaring portrayal of it being a cult.

My favorite thing about the movie was trying to understand the very complex set of characters and i absolutely loved how unpredictable they tended to be. Definitely saw some of that TWBB/Daniel Planview "thank you for asking is enough" attitude and while I haven't re-watched The Master yet i do recall some great lines and scenes.
[spoiler]At the beginning when Phonex kept saying "he took the drink himself" to justify the old mans over dose on Phonex's drink that results in Phonex running for dear life in a field. Also at the end when Hoffman says "he's going very fast, good boy" and Phonex drives off and leaves them all behind in the vast desert.[/spoiler]

Some truly great stuff that just takes time to digest, perhaps more than most movie goers are willing to invest.

[Stewball]

Universal just passed on his new film, lol noobs

Well they've proven to only support money makers, and if they pass on PTA, i'm sure its their loss.

Sometimes quality and making money go hand in hand, or crap and red ink; re: The Master. How he could go from Magnolia to that escapes me.

And for the record, The Tree of Life is a classic. Anybody wants it explained, PM me and I'll be glad to pass it on. Or just look up my review.

[Jorg]

Universal just passed on his new film, lol noobs

Well they've proven to only support money makers, and if they pass on PTA, i'm sure its their loss.

Sometimes quality and making money go hand in hand, or crap and red ink; re: The Master. How he could go from Magnolia to that escapes me.

And for the record, The Tree of Life is a classic. Anybody wants it explained, PM me and I'll be glad to pass it on. Or just look up my review.

Well, everybody has their opinion.. IMHO Magnolia is pretentious and one of PTA's lesser works (rated T6) and don't even get me started about Tree of Life (T1, and I liked all of Malick's prior work).

[Gideon]

Universal just passed on his new film, lol noobs

And for the record, The Tree of Life is a classic. Anybody wants it explained, PM me and I'll be glad to pass it on. Or just look up my review.

Classically idiotic and simplistic, perhaps. I find your arrogance regarding your 'explanation' of ToL amusing. ToL is not a tough film to grasp, to understand. The real problem is that Malick ignores the fact film making is a rather exact form of art. Intuition is key with Malick. A loose way of telling a story. Kubrick for example was the polar opposite, every detail thought out, taking many takes, a true perfectionist. I prefer the latter. ToL was nothing more to me than an overlong and very expensive powerpoint presentation to satisfy his own ego. The most important thing within a film is the story. What the director wants to tell his audience. Without this key ingredient only visuals remain.

[3dRevelation]

Thinking about this a bit more, I think that the story was just not satisfactory enough for me (which is why IMO this is PTA's worst film). I still need to rewatch it, but I think even with a rewatch it may not be able to take itself from that spot. The way I see it PTA had 2 options for the story he wanted to present: The first one is the option he chose in that he examines the relationship between The Master and Joaquin Phoenix; The second is conceivably one in which The Master takes center stage over Phoenix and the film is more about the philosophy of the Cause.

Personally I think I would have liked a story like the latter. That's not to say that I didn't want Phoenix in the film, but that I think the film would have been better with Hoffman in a more prominent role over Phoenix. I think I wanted more focus on the teachings and appeal of the cause. I could imagine Joaquin Phoenix lost and wandering after the war becoming attracted to the Cause and serving as Hoffman's right hand man and then there's a break between Phoenix and Hoffman (and there was kind of a break in the film, but not as confrontational as I expected, in the jail cell scene and at the end). I wanted Phoenix to be enamored with the Cause and then to finally realize that it is bullshit and break it off. This all sounds rather selfish I guess with all the "I wants", but I really think a story focused on The Cause/The Master and the teachings and how Phoenix is at first drawn in by the Cause and then revolts against could have held water.

I think the biggest reason the first option didn't work for me was because, as good as Phoenix was, his character was just way too mysterious. What did he want from the Master/The Cause? Acceptance? Meaning? Friendship? Or just a roof over his head and booze? I'm not sure we ever really find out. He doesn't seem widely accepted by members of the cause. I'm not sure he wants to find any kind of meaning in his life. His only real friend seems to be Hoffman. And even at the end Phoenix seems unchanged from how he was in the beginning. Maybe that is the point. It just sort of baffles me though. Maybe it simply is just a "love story"; however, I am not content with it just being that.