The Grizzly Man and Herzog

[Pickpocket]

It's interesting that your biggest gripe of the film, Treadwell's brain, considering your 2 highest rated movies are Kazaam and The Big Lebowski. Both of those are filled with nothing but stupid characters yet you seem to love them. Maybe you just don't like documentaries (only 10 ranked, non in tier 10). It suspiciously feels like you pre rated this movie even before you saw it, your review just comes off as vindictive of the man rather than the material.

I am sick and tired of hearing how great Werner Herzog is.

He's definitely overrated but maybe I could take you seriously if you had seen more than 1 of his films. But you haven't and thus your assessment of the man's work is a total joke and completely unwarranted.

I've been with 50 yards of a mother bear and her cub in southern coastal Alaska, guess what, I didn't die...because I'm not an idiot.

I didn't love this movie either but if this is a serious thought you took away from it you may, in fact, be an idiot.

[sebby]

Herzog did not make a mistake in subject matter just because you didn't like the film, bub. By all objective counts, he made one of the greatest choices for subject matter in the history of documentaries, as Grizzly Man was one of the most financially and critically successful documentaries in the history of documentaries.

Once again, you're letting your weird bias against the film and its filmmaker overtake logic completely.

[CMonster]

I knew that my blatant love of Kazaam and Shaq would come back to bite me. Touche good sir, touche.

[theficionado]

Yeah, Herzog thinks nature is OBSCENE. He probably didn't really appreciate Treadwell's sentimentalization and anthropomorphization of the bears.

[MmzHrrdb]

He's definitely overrated but maybe I could take you seriously if you had seen more than 1 of his films. But you haven't and thus your assessment of the man's work is a total joke and completely unwarranted.

Of the more aggressive replies in this thread, this is the stand-out for being absolutely spot-on.

______________________________

Now, I haven't seen this film for years but I remember enjoying it, if not for the "beautiful images" (which, as has been said, aren't the most difficult to get considering the setting) then for the intimacy of the character portrait the condensed footage ultimately formed -- something on which Treadwell's "idiocy" doesn't have any bearing.

Certainly I don't see why Herzog would also be idiotic simply because he sympathized with his subject. In fact, simply lambasting Treadwell for his apparent idiocy would actually make him a worse filmmaker, and Grizzly Man a puerile film. But as others have said, you hardly get the sense that Treadwell was a massively complex and rational-minded person from the film, nor did that appear to be the intent.

Really the prevailing memory I have of the film was its tremendous compassion and intimacy.

[Bojangles]

I've been irked at some of your reviews and comments in other threads about The Grizzly Man and other Alaska centric movies, but this thread pissed me off enough that I had to leave a rage-based and regressive reply. I apologize or whatever. Now though, what I sincerely want to know is: what possesses you to call a tragically disturbed and now deceased human being an idiot? Yes, this is the internet and it's small beans and 'who cares?' and stuff, but you also say in your Into the Wild review that you're glad Chris McCandless is dead. And now this impassioned thread wherein you basically call everyone associated with the movie an idiot or a joke. Why do these people, who lived however irrationally and died alone in nature, make you so virulent?

[CMonster]

Being that I'm from a very similar area, I get really pissed when people focus on the people who go into nature because they 'hate people and society' then die because they can't handle it. It detracts from the people who legitimately die tragic deaths in nature because of circumstances they can't control. One of my best friends had his dad die because he boat sank when in the middle of the night a storm swept in and there was literally nothing he could do. You may think that being on your boat in the middle of the night is stupid, but when you make a living fishing and take all the precautions necessary and it happens during the time of year that isn't stormy, that is not based on ignorance. That is tragedy.

McCandless and Treadwell had every opportunity to survive and they spit in its face because of their beliefs and philosophy. They ignored the power of nature and tried to embrace it in the worst way possible. They pushed the limits for no reason. Then, people make films about them that get people all dewy eyed over the tragedy. It was especially more so in Into the Wild, but they come off as martyrs so people can care about what they stood for. People may recognize the insanity in Treadwell, but for someone who's been there, the 'beauty' is marred by ignorance. It makes all the people who not only love nature, but respect it, look like fools when something bad happens to them. From being there, I can say that there is a difference between them and McCandless/Treadwell. It also bothers me that the things most associated with Alaska are people I would call idiots (this group now also includes Sarah Palin).

Maybe I made a mistake in trying to break my criticisms down into how someone from Alaska rationally interprets the death of such a man, rather than how we emotionally interpret it. Maybe I put to much effort into being glib about my feelings toward him rather than comparing his life to real tragedy. If so, then it is on me. That said, I cannot feel sad for either man when actual tragedies strike to people who respect nature and take precautions against it.

[ShogunRua]

Certainly I don't see why Herzog would also be idiotic simply because he sympathized with his subject. In fact, simply lambasting Treadwell for his apparent idiocy would actually make him a worse filmmaker, and Grizzly Man a puerile film.

I think the point CMonster made (and one I agree with) is that Grizzly Man is simply not interesting enough to make a documentary out of at all.

Now, I'm sure that Herzog, being a film-making great, did what he could to tease some content out of it. But at the end of the day, I watch documentaries to learn something, not to hear the ramblings of a garden-variety madman.

Now though, what I sincerely want to know is: what possesses you to call a tragically disturbed and now deceased human being an idiot?

I'm not CMonster, but I feel exactly the same way as him on this point, and can answer this.

I hate that those who die purely through their own stupidity are labeled "tragic death". To me, it's a giant fucking insult to all the people who held on to life as much as they could, and truly died a tragic death. A child who died of cancer. A man in his 50s taken by a sudden heart attack or stroke. That's tragic. Life was taken away from these people far too early through no fault of their own. They are the ones who deserve our deepest sympathies.

To me, those that die through their own stupidity, whether by overdosing on drugs or living next to grizzly bears without safety precautions are contemptible idiots who spit on the Gift of Life. There is nothing "tragic" about them; just an example of what to avoid doing in life.

[Bojangles]

In Treadwell I saw vast unresolved neuroses and a weakness in character to overcome them. Weakness isn't contemptible. He never hurt anyone more than he hurt himself, and that I find tragic. McCandless, on the other hand, did hurt quite a bit those that loved him. At least Treadwell's folks knew where on earth he was. But even that pain that he wrought on others was the result of an inability to face the world or even his own past because of an inherent weakness (or "fineness" as Sean Penn prefers to put it) that can't be overcome through sheer tyranny of will.

Maybe I feel too much. I even feel bad for pedophiles. What a curse. How does one overcome strong socially incompatible desires and crippling maladjustment? Is it the same place where Marcus Bachman cures gay people?

[ShogunRua]

In Treadwell I saw vast unresolved neuroses and a weakness in character to overcome them. Weakness isn't contemptible. He never hurt anyone more than he hurt himself, and that I find tragic.

I disagree with the original premise that Treadwell never hurt anymore more than himself. After all, he caused the vicious death of his girlfriend by the bear, too.

However, even if I agreed with the premise, I disagree with your conclusion that anyone who hurts him or herself is "tragic". Do you feel a lot of sympathy for people who die purely through their own foolishness, whether it be due to drunk driving or a drug addiction?

Personally, my sympathy isn't infinite, so I reserve it for those innocent victims that suffered an early death through no fault of their own. (A malignant cancer, a sudden illness, an accident, etc.) Not for the people who carelessly threw the precious gift of life away.

Maybe I feel too much. I even feel bad for pedophiles. What a curse. How does one overcome strong socially incompatible desires and crippling maladjustment? Is it the same place where Marcus Bachman cures gay people?

That's fine. You can bestow your sympathy on whoever you want to. It's yours, after all.

But I think the position of myself (and CMonster) on the matter is plenty reasonable. Not sure what confused you about it and prompted the initial question.