Movie-Specific : Jesus Camp

[nauru]

I just watched Jesus Camp last night. Holy fuck.

My parents sent me to an Christian overnight camp in Canada once when I was 7. It was slightly less extreme than the one in this film (no cardboard cutout of the prime minister) but still 95% of the activities were the same. I was pretty scared at the time, since I knew nobody when I arrived and to make friends you had to appear to be Christian. I'm pretty sure I accepted Jesus as my personal saviour in front of people on several occasions because what the hell else are you going to do? You're not supposed to disobey grown-ups and camp counselors. I think my parents honestly didn't realize the nature of the camp before signing me up since they are not Christian and I'd never even been to church before at that point. Within 3 days I was calling home begging them to come get me, but they figured I was just homesick because I'd never been away from home without them before. The term "Fundamentalist nutjobs" was not yet in my vocabulary.

But now it makes me wonder, is this what other religious camps are like too? Are Jewish overnight camps like this? I grew up with around half of my friends being jewish and they all went to these huge camps with thousands of people every summer. I always assumed the extremism was mostly a Christian thing (and once I got older, a Muslim thing too) but this Jesus Camp film reminded me of that early experience with religion and makes me wonder whether those Jewish camps and other religions' camps are basically brainwashing kids like the Christian ones. I think back to my conversations with many of my Jewish friends growing up, who were really fun to hang out with and reasonable, logical people until the subject of Israel came up-- and they could not talk rationally or logically at all. It was like something would click and they became impervious to reasoned discussion. So I quickly learned to always change the subject to something else if they mentioned any middle east stuff.

An interesting aspect is that no religious person I know considers themself truly fundamentalist, since there is always someone who is more hardcore than they are. So in my experience people who do not dress in the traditional religious fundamentalist clothing will not consider themselves fundamentalist or extremist, no matter how closely their views reflect deep-seated fundamentalism or extremism. They'll be like "oh but I eat x at y time of the day and fundamentalists wouldn't do that so I'm not a fundamentalist." Right. I guess everyone likes to consider themself the norm, the moderate, the middle ground.

Anyway by the end of this disturbing film I had this eerie feeling that American (and Canadian) politics and particularly foreign policy make a lot more sense to me than they did 80 minutes earlier.

Just to be clear, I am not an atheist who looks down his nose at anyone who believes in a 'higher power'. Although unaffiliated with any religious group or organisation, I am polytheistic and try to pay respect to the gods regularly.

[cameron326]

But on what grounds do you disagree with the statement "Warlocks are enemies of God"

Seems perfectly rational to me!

[Anomaly1]

But now it makes me wonder, is this what other religious camps are like too? Are Jewish overnight camps like this? I grew up with around half of my friends being jewish and they all went to these huge camps with thousands of people every summer. I always assumed the extremism was mostly a Christian thing (and once I got older, a Muslim thing too) but this Jesus Camp film reminded me of that early experience with religion and makes me wonder whether those Jewish camps and other religions' camps are basically brainwashing kids like the Christian ones.

I haven't seen it but there's a documentary by Louis Theroux on Ultra-Zionists in Israel, which, according to shebang's review, has someone make the argument that "Look, we either occupy the West Bank or we go into the ovens of Auschwitz."

Religious extremism (more accurately, fundamentalism) is a relatively recent phenomena, resulting from the increasing secularization of society, which came about from the Industrial Revolution, development of modern medicine and just general increase in science being able to explain things and provide technology for us. Before, people were religious, but nobody went and took their holy book literally. I always found it kind of fascinating myself, this shift in response to the changing world. So, since Christianity and Islam have the most followers, they'll have the largest fundamentalist movements, but other religions have them too, and always remember that extremism is defined by the values the society surrounding the group hold. Being willing to kill others or kill yourself is often regarded as an extreme position, and applies to even the smallest religious movements.

[ShogunRua]

Are Jewish overnight camps like this?

None that I'm aware of. I've never seen one of them here.

I grew up with around half of my friends being jewish and they all went to these huge camps with thousands of people every summer.

Oh yeah, there are definitely summer camps held at local synagogues and JCC's around here. (Jewish Community Centers) They're not religious, though. I was an atheist as a kid, and went to one. We never had to learn about religion or anything, especially if we didn't want to.

I always assumed the extremism was mostly a Christian thing (and once I got older, a Muslim thing too) but this Jesus Camp film reminded me of that early experience with religion and makes me wonder whether those Jewish camps and other religions' camps are basically brainwashing kids like the Christian ones.

Uh, no. The thing about "Jesus Camp" is that it makes people really paranoid about anything to do with religion, even if it's something as innocent as a summer camp.

I think back to my conversations with many of my Jewish friends growing up, who were really fun to hang out with and reasonable, logical people until the subject of Israel came up-- and they could not talk rationally or logically at all. It was like something would click and they became impervious to reasoned discussion. So I quickly learned to always change the subject to something else if they mentioned any middle east stuff.

I don't know what exactly you talked about, but have you ever considered that maybe it wasn't all your friends who were insane? That you weren't the only smart guy in the room? Have you ever considered that maybe you were being the irrational one?

I don't know; the way you phrased this paragraph comes off as really arrogant and insulting. Especially considering individual Jews have diametrically opposite views on what is going on in Israel.

I haven't seen it but there's a documentary by Louis Theroux on Ultra-Zionists in Israel, which, according to shebang's review, has someone make the argument that "Look, we either occupy the West Bank or we go into the ovens of Auschwitz."

Louis Theroux is an idiot hack. The term "ultra-Zionists" and even "Zionists" is pretty damn offensive to begin with, kind of like calling a black person the n word.

Anyways, Theroux, being the good little liberal that he is, goes to Israel and makes a documentary on some evil, crazy Jews. At no point do these evil, crazy Jews do anything violent towards him, even when he is openly mocking their most fervent beliefs.

Had Louis made a similarly derisive documentary on those good, sane Muslims, he would probably return to Britain....in a body bag. With his genitals cut off.

Religious extremism (more accurately, fundamentalism) is a relatively recent phenomena, resulting from the increasing secularization of society, which came about from the Industrial Revolution, development of modern medicine and just general increase in science being able to explain things and provide technology for us. Before, people were religious, but nobody went and took their holy book literally.

Wow, what complete horseshit.

Ever hear of the Crusades? Or the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre?!

People have been killing one another over religions for thousands of years. The idea that this is a "relatively recent phenomena" might be the most idiotic, revisionist bullcrap I have ever read on an Internet forum. That's quite the accomplishment, Anomaly1. Take a bow.

[CMonster]

So where did you find the evidence that 0% of the Jewish population is extremist? I would really like to see these facts because it would be fascinating. Going to one summer camp can only speak to those people and that summer camp so I'm looking for something more empirical than anecdotal.

[shebang]

Congrats on being, once again, a sperging bully, Shogun. I'm sure everyone was very impressed. Zionism was/is an actual ideology not a slur so you're wrong.

I don't know; the way you phrased this paragraph comes off as really arrogant and insulting

irony much

[Anomaly1]

Wow, what complete horseshit.

Ever hear of the Crusades? Or the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre?!

People have been killing one another over religions for thousands of years. The idea that this is a "relatively recent phenomena" might be the most idiotic, revisionist bullcrap I have ever read on an Internet forum. That's quite the accomplishment, Anomaly1. Take a bow.

...Except we were talking about fundamentalism and biblical literalism, and me specifically the rise of it, not a series of events caused by many factors more complex than 'taking the Bible literally.' I don't think it is a massive leap of logic to differentiate between someone in the past who killed because they believed it was the Word of God as told by their leaders and who in all likelihood was illiterate and had never actually read the Bible, and someone who preaches on a variety of social issues like gay marriage etc. because they believe that every signal world of the bible is to be taken at literal face value. The latter is definitely a 19th-century and onward phenomena.

Now would you mind citing your sources, too?

[ShogunRua]

So where did you find the evidence that 0% of the Jewish population is extremist?

Where did you find the part of my post where I wrote remotely anything like this? I made a statement about Jewish summer camps in the US generally having little to do with religion (based on personal experience, and those of my friends), nothing more.

Zionism was/is an actual ideology not a slur so you're wrong.

The way the term was used by "Anomaly1" in that sentence, and frankly, the way many people use it, is in a purely racist sense. Yes, ostensibly, "Zionism" is just the political movement for Jews to obtain freedom in a country of their own. A laudable goal, right? But that's not the way Anomaly1 uses the term. In her sentence, replace "Ultra-Zionists in Israel" with "crazy, evil Jews", and it makes even better sense.

...Except we were talking about fundamentalism and biblical literalism, and me specifically the rise of it, not a series of events caused by many factors more complex than 'taking the Bible literally.' I don't think it is a massive leap of logic to differentiate between someone in the past who killed because they believed it was the Word of God as told by their leaders and who in all likelihood was illiterate and had never actually read the Bible, and someone who preaches on a variety of social issues like gay marriage etc. because they believe that every signal world of the bible is to be taken at literal face value. The latter is definitely a 19th-century and onward phenomena.

Wow, you're seriously trying to defend this?

Anomaly1: "Religious extremism (more accurately, fundamentalism) is a relatively recent phenomena,"

I barely even have words. If things like the Crusades and St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre don't count as examples of "extremism" or "fundamentalism", let alone hundreds of other acts of violence, then pray, what the hell does?!

Now would you mind citing your sources, too?

You've never heard of the Crusades or St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre before?

[CMonster]

Are Jewish overnight camps like this?

None that I'm aware of. I've never seen one of them here.

My point was you say 'none that you are aware of' but you are an atheist who went to once Jewish summer camp. Did you ever got to a normal Christian summer camp? Have you been to one of the crazy Christian summer camps? Have you been to a muslim summer camp? Did you ever have the chance to go to scout camp and see the difference between the troops that were just having fun and the troops that we crazy intense? I'm saying that just because you aren't aware of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're tone implies you know for a fact that they don't exist. I can say for a fact not all Christian camps are pushing intense fundamentalism, but some do.

[ShogunRua]

Are Jewish overnight camps like this?

None that I'm aware of. I've never seen one of them here.

My point was you say 'none that you are aware of' but you are an atheist who went to once Jewish summer camp. Did you ever got to a normal Christian summer camp? Have you been to one of the crazy Christian summer camps? Have you been to a muslim summer camp? Did you ever have the chance to go to scout camp and see the difference between the troops that were just having fun and the troops that we crazy intense? I'm saying that just because you aren't aware of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're tone implies you know for a fact that they don't exist. I can say for a fact not all Christian camps are pushing intense fundamentalism, but some do.

What? Do you even read posts before firing off a response? nauru mentioned his suspicions about Jewish summer camps, and I replied that to the best of my knowledge, there were no crazy indoctrination camps like this in the US, especially since all the ones I know or went to were fairly non-religious. My other friends had similar experiences in camps in other states.

What the hell do Christian or Muslim summer camps have to do with this?