Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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VinegarBob
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by VinegarBob »

For what it's worth I think all the Star Wars films are pretty bad, with the exception of Empire Strikes Back. I have never looked past their flaws and judged each on its own merits. The second trilogy was exponentially worse than the original. The current trilogy seems to be falling somewhere in between. I'm not particularly looking forward to The Last Jedi.

martryn
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by martryn »

I'm going to use this thread for my own intimate rant, which will be spoiler-laden. If you haven't seen it, you'll be doing yourself the trouble by saving yourself the time anyways. And this is coming from a guy who loves Star Wars. I'm a Star Wars fanboy. And holy shit, this movie was trash.

For starters, why the hell is the "Resistance" even a resistance at all? Aren't they on the side of the government that was supposed to be in power for the last 30 years? Did the Galactic Republic just completely demilitarize? Yeah, I get it, the Starkiller base wiped out many core worlds or whatever, throwing the Republic into chaos, but The Force Awakens ends on a military victory for the Resistance that appeared to be a massive setback for the First Order. And yet, when The Last Jedi opens the tables are turned. There are now only a handful of Resistance ships and the First Order appears to be a massive war machine.

And yet, this war machine is ruled by an idiot. General Hux is easily duped by Poe in a comically embarrassing scene full of non-Star Wars style humor. And as neat as Poe flying in and destroying shit was, militarily it didn't make any sense for him to be capable of such a thing. How did he pull that shit off? Why the hell WEREN'T the fighters already scrambled? Not to mention you can't DROP bombs in space! You can't DROP ANYTHING in space! So all dramatic effect was killed by scientific incredulity.

So, while we are reeling from the opening scene, the movie brings us our first gut punch. Beloved Admiral Ackbar is unceremoniously killed off-screen. What. The. Fuck. We only learn this from a throw away line. Wow. Suck a dick, Star Wars.

So now the movie goes into a freefall. Ignoring Leia's eye-rolling use of the force to save herself from the vacuum of space... I am convinced now, looking back, that Carrie Fisher jettisoned herself out of the airlock so she wouldn't have to witness what came next. The Last Jedi killed her.

If you had to look at the three plot threads at this point:
1. Finn/Rose
2. Poe
3. Rey

Finn/Rose: Two bumbling idiots treat us to the worst 1/3 of the movie. The casino planet CGI scenes were shockingly poor. I thought they were recycling footage they generated for Attack of the Clones. The thinly veiled political commentary about rich people are bad... Jumping around on horse/dog/monkeys for a bumbling chase scene. And poorly using the talent of an actor like Benicio del Toro so he can play a stuttering idiot. And when the movie ends, or even before, you realize that these two "heroes" did nothing for the cause. They get in the way, they spoil the Resistance plans, killing probably hundreds of their allies in the process, and when Finn has a chance to sacrifice himself at the end of the movie in an act of mercy for the audience, he is spared because of a misplaced feeling of love.

Poe: Poe is NOT Han Solo, and will never be. He spends the entire movie ignoring the chain of command. He leads a fool-hardy attack at the beginning of the film, which it is later mentioned as having crippled the Resistance's ability to counter-attack the fleet pursuing them. He then spends the rest of the movie being a thorn in the side of Laura Dern. By the end of the movie, outside of his opening heroics, all he really does is get in the way. Very, very different from his characterization from The Force Awakens. He goes from being competent to deserving a court martial and possible execution.

Speaking of Laura Dern's character, why didn't she just let Poe in on her plans? Was it because he was not high enough ranked?

And the movie is set up to reveal a traitor in the midst of the Resistance forces. Someone had to plant the tracker on the Resistance ships, right? Or am I totally missing something? Laura Dern was teased as that traitor for the entire second act. When it is revealed that she is TOTALLY A GOOD GUY, I'm left thinking... who is the traitor, and when is he going to spring his traitorous treachery?

By the way, if flying a ship light speed while it is pointed in the general direction of other ships is an effective tactic for wiping out entire fleets, why didn't anyone attempt this against either of the two Deathstars? Or... any other significant military target, ever, in any other Star Wars media? Hell, even a droid could perform such a maneuver. They could make drones that are really just hunks of mass with light speed capability to use as weapons. They could have munitions that did this. Regardless, this is the sendoff that Admiral Ackbar needed. Why couldn't we keep Laura Dern for movie IX and off Ackbar in a badass and heroic way? At least Nien Nunb made it through another film.

Rey and Ren/Ben: The only truly redeeming moments in this film largely revolved around Rey and Ren. Their interaction with one another was the true driving force of this movie. I was largely disappointed with Rey's time with Luke. This is not the montage training scenes I was hoping for. There was, in fact, little to no actual training taking place. As with everything else in the film, this plot strand served no real, defining purpose. But at least her time with Luke gave us a backdrop for which Rey could communicate with Ren/Ben. I knew this was going to lead to an amazing sequence when the two finally met, and I was not too disappointed.

Yes, Snoke died like a bitch. We know nothing about him, his origins, how he got his scars, how he became so powerful in the force, who trained him, how he is connected with the Star Wars mythos of bygone days, how he corrupted Ren/Ben.

Yes, Rey's parents were nobodies, which doesn't bother me from a logical standpoint but does disturb me as a missed opportunity from a storytelling, dramatic reveal, POV. A lot of build-up since The Force Awakens and the two largest fan talking points are waved aside in a rolling miasma of meh.

But at least we got a cool fight scene that had lightsabers and lots of martial artist looking guys. This sequence felt raw, in the best use of that word, a la the original series fight sequences. There weren't showy uses of the force, crazy leaps and jumps, embellished flourishes of the blade. Just power, emotion, and down-to-earth fight choreography. Maybe the most enjoyable couple of minutes of the entire film.

But then it ends. And the filmmakers again prove they don't have the courage to take Star Wars to the places it needs to go. The safe thing to do was to have Rey and Kylo Ren refuse to work together, setting up the inevitable final lightsaber confrontation in the next movie. What would have proved to be a more interesting choice of narrative was for them to agree to work together. Kylo Ren would call off the assault, General Hux would become the new leader of the First Order, and the last movie would feature Rey as a voice of reason, control, and potential love interest for Ren/Ben and Kylo Ren serving as a teacher and mentor to the untrained Rey. There would be that tension between Poe - Finn and Kylo Ren. The reunion and act of forgiveness of Leia. A confrontation between Ren and Luke. And Rey and Ren could team up together to fight the mysterious Knights of Ren, who were mentioned in the Force Awakens and still have not appeared on-screen (unless they were the scrubs that were just killed).

But, nope, filmmakers are playing it safe.

So we have the finale, in which, following a trend set early in the film, the good guys run away to fight another day. The major cinematic theme of the film is flight. Luke Skywalker is given his chance to redeem himself, and instead he dies halfway across the galaxy after not even putting himself at risk. None of the main trio of characters serve any purpose, and accomplish nothing during the film. The events of the entire movie could have unfolded without them taking any action.

So now I'm left with questions:
Did they really cram the ENTIRE Resistance onto the Millennium Falcon?
Where are the Knights of Ren?
What killed Luke?
Why didn't force ghost Anakin slap some sense into Kylo Ren in the last movie?
How much time passed between this film and Force Awakens? Did Rey arrive at Luke's place at the start of this film, or the end of last one?
Why aren't all droids as competent as BB-8?
What happened to Matt from Lost?
Are Twi'leks now extinct?
Who the fuck is Maz Kanata, and why should we care?
How will Leia die, and why did they have to kill everything we ever loved!?
Do Monkey/Horse/Dogs make orphans into jedis?
Why name anyone DJ? And what happened to the ACTUAL codebreaker?
Where are the crew of the Ghost and the characters from Star Wars: Rebels?
Did no Ewoks have a desire to leave the moon of Endor and hangout with the Resistance?
What about Wookies?
And where do the Hutts fall in the grand scheme of these new films?
And when is that traitorous traitor going to spring his treachery?

philamental
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by philamental »

There are BOUND to be a lot of spoilers in the below

A lot of interesting viewpoints there, some I agree with, some I don't. I think *very* generally, I find that a lot of the problems people have with TLJ come from the film failing to meet their own personal expectations of what a star wars movie should be while forgetting that the original trilogy films are also full of flaws if inspected with similar critical mindsets. The Star Wars saga is a melodramatic space opera meant to be accessible to a broad spectrum of ages, and that means the inclusion of characters and gags that are tonally aimed at a younger audience. I can accept that, but my biggest problem with TLJ is the timing of a lot of the jokes. For example the one where Luke asks Rey where she is from, she says nowhere, he says everybody is from somewhere, she says Jakku, and he deadpans along the lines of 'ok that really is nowhere'. I actually think its a funny gag, but completely out of place during an important scene where Luke is attempting to figure out the young girl who has found him and is attempting to seek his help. It didn't need any comic relief at that moment and it's not the only time this happens in TLJ. Genuine question, are today's kids so ADHD that they need to be entertained every few mins lest they lose interest during a dialogue heavy scene?

Another choice that bothered me was turning Hux into a pantomime villain and the victim of so many slapstick punchlines. I actually disliked the Hux character in TFA to start with to be honest. I thought Gleeson's performance was already too cheesy and over the top and nowhere near the 'young Moff Tarkin' I anticipated his character to be. In TLJ it looks like Rian Johnson just doubled down and decided he was going to be comic relief throughout. Snoke at one stage tries to justify why a bumbling idiot has such a position of power, but it's not the strongest reasoning. Panto villain Hux is not a decision I would have taken, but I have now come to terms with it. Most franchises of this nature have comic relief characters on both sides of the good vs evil divide. In star wars, we've always had the droids and god forbid the likes of jar jar binks, but we've never had an evil comic relief character so this feels 'off' to us, but I can look at it objectively and believe that in 30 years time, there will be adults our age who love Star Wars discussing how much they always enjoyed the humour of the General Hux character having grown up with it.

I'm not going to dissect every point you made, as I think you just wanted to vent your viewpoints rather than get into a debate, but I will try and answer some of the questions you concluded with as I think there are some good ones there.

Did they really cram the ENTIRE Resistance onto the Millennium Falcon?
Honestly, I got the impression their numbers had been reduced to so few that yes they could all fit on the falcon. Look at the numbers standing around in the bunker just before they follow the crystal critters. They look like there were less than 30 in total. Remember that most of the transport ships were shot down before they reached Crait and more died defending the bunker.

Where are the Knights of Ren?
Good question. Definitely a notable omission to not even mention them. I can only assume they had too much to try and cover in TLJ that they didn't want to try juggle another ball. I hope that JJ gives them some sort of notable coverage in Ep IX seeing as he's the one who hinted at them so strongly in the first place.

What killed Luke?
I'm definitely not an authority on this, but my take was the physical effort it took to Astral Project himself across the galaxy and buy the time the Rebels needed to escape, proved to be too much for his regular lifeforce and so he disappeared into the force voluntarily having made peace with himself and his place in the universe. It's an absolute that he will turn up in Ep IX haunting Ben as he's suggested as much himself in their face off.

How much time passed between this film and Force Awakens? Did Rey arrive at Luke's place at the start of this film, or the end of last one?
Not much if any. At the end of TFA Rey set off to find Luke immediately after R2 conveniently awoke with the missing part of the map and she found him soon after (days? I dunno how long space travel takes) and that's where TLJ also starts. Finn is also seen emerging from his coma in the bacta suit referencing the loss of consciousness he suffered helping Rey fight Kylo Ren. And Ben himself starts TLJ with his face still healing from the lightsabre fight with Rey and we see him having surgery on it soon after.

Who the fuck is Maz Kanata, and why should we care?
Never warmed to her myself either. I get the feeling she was supposed to be a sort of modern trilogy Yoda substitute, but she didn't really work for me in any capacity. I was glad she was reduced to a blurry cameo this time out so maybe others felt similar and she may no longer be an important character to the franchise?

How will Leia die, and why did they have to kill everything we ever loved!?
I expected they would find a way to retrospectively add a death scene in TLJ knowing they couldn't shoot anything better for Ep IX. I have no idea how they can handle it effectively from here. Do they reuse cut footage to somehow write her out of the story? Do they marginalize her character by sending her back to Poochie's home planet at the start of the next one? It could be argued that substituting her into Holdo's sacrifice would have been a fitting end for her character, but maybe it was technically too difficult?

Do Monkey/Horse/Dogs make orphans into jedis?
The point I took here was that there was a force sensitive kid out there growing up dreaming of joining the Resistance, and that he and others like him around the galaxy would be the future of the Rebel forces.

Why name anyone DJ? And what happened to the ACTUAL codebreaker?
That was a sloppy alright. Watching the movie, I was never that clear on whether Del Toro was the code breaker they were looking for or not. It turns out he wasn't and the actual codebreaker remained rolling dice at the tables. However the whole thing makes Maz Kanata's supposedly sage advice seem pointless. She said there was only one person who could hack the first order security which is why they had to go to Canto Bight in the first place. Turns out there were two capable of the hack in the same complex on the same night which is a bit weak.

I will finish off by challenging one statement you made where you said 'The filmmakers played it safe'. In a movie, where they kill snoke, abandon the mystery of Rey's parentage and kill off Luke f***ing Skywalker, I don't think the filmmakers can be accused of playing things too safe! ;)

livelove
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by livelove »

Having grown up with and fallen in love with the original trilogy, I watched TLJ 2 times in cinema and it's really difficult to rate this film. A bit like rating your own partner ... you obviously tend to overrate. It's the same thing, in both cases you have seen better times :P

I don't think it's a bad film. But it feels like the magic is gone. Like a partner you still appreciate. But where are the butterflies in my tummy?

The feeling which came to stick with me ever since is: a sad kind of emptiness.

I couldn't even say spontaneously what exactly I am missing.
But it feels like something is missing.
And I am afraid it's the very soul, essence and magic of what made me fall in love with this universe in the first place.

But what does this magic consist of ?

I am not sure about that part.

If anyone wants to chime in, I'd be very appreciative.

90sCoffee
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by 90sCoffee »

^ You answered your own question. It's missing the magic that you would expect in an action-adventure film because the director was a terrible choice who shouldn't be doing space sci-fi to begin with.

ribcage
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by ribcage »

A different magic.

Or the same that the original trilogy had that turned into the magic of comfort, of nostalgia, of characters you know so well they feel like friends.

But the magic I found in Last Jedi was of knowing they could go anywhere...and actually being taken there( something TFA did not do). That final act was unpredictable, full of surprises, daring, dangerous, and divisive. I was thrilled, not just with what was on-screen but the broader implications: this is a tentpole franchise tearing down its own walls...Hollywood never does this! I do think Johnson got a bit...malicious...almost deriding elements of TFA (Rey's lineage, and it's handling of that revelation in particular) and the whole Casino excursion is muddled.

That original trilogy did magically take us to death stars and floating cities... But we've seen enough of spectacle to not find magic in that anymore. And this trilogies characters are far weaker, but I think Johnson takes his best crack at putting a bandaid on that issue. The magic is in a story where hubris defeats a beloved character, where stakes are raised higher than we've yet seen...and lost, promising a fantastic conclusion even if we might not get "fantastic" and if, of necessity it can't be as adventurous as Last Jedi.

SirStuckey
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by SirStuckey »

My issues with Star Wars have arisen more and more as I've aged. While I loved it as a kid I find even the original trilogy a bit lacking overall now. I just have less of an interest in everything being so black and white. Light Side and Dark Side with little gray area. I tend to prefer the gray area movies as an adult and so I don't expect much from Star Wars anymore.

I was interested in Force Awakens and after the trailer I was hoping it would be a lot of Finn's story as a Stormtrooper as that is something we've never seen before and could have some interesting moments. Turns out that was just a bit of the first act and then the rest was exploration of nostalgia.

Force Awakens was more frustrating because it very often teased some of the gray area stuff I would enjoy until going with the least interesting thing possible of 'Dark Side always bad' and 'light side always good'. I would have loved more of the Rey and Kylo dynamic as they were both teasing more character depth than Star Wars is used to while interacting with each other. I guess there is hope they go back to it in the third movie but I'm not holding my breath.

MmzHrrdb
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by MmzHrrdb »

PrestoBix wrote:It was easily the best Star Wars film visually, and as a film spectacle it was extraordinarily rousing. The constant diverting of expectations was also tons of fun.

Every film released nowadays looks fantastic.
Good looking garbage is still garbage.

kgbelliveau
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by kgbelliveau »

For my lifelong interest in Star Wars and the journeys of the characters I felt like the Last Jedi destroyed my interest in the future of the series. It was such a slow burning film that did very little to create threads for the final adventure. In fact it closed all the doors that had previously been opened with the Force Awakens.

The were vastly different films in many regards but the progression of the Story done in Last Jedi was much worse. Of course Force Awakens draws comparisons to A New Hope in the way it needed to set up a new set of core characters. The Last Jedi almost felt like it needed to slap Force Awakens in the face and be done with all the potential engaging story lines that it brought to the table.

Rian Johnson tore about the franchise just to be handed the ropes to his own original series that I most certainly no longer have interest in. Rian Johnson had no love for what Star Wars was all about and took a giant deuce on a series that had already been well accepted with audiences.

He disregarded the one story line with Rey and her parents that actually meant something. He had ample time to create a better way to handle Leia moving forward yet chose to for some reason leave that open ended. Does Luke even have a reason to be shown as a Force ghost? He does not mean all that much to Rey or Ren at this point. Finn was reduced to a horrible romantic sub plot that absolutely no one cared about. Poe is the most interesting character left but a final adventure surely cannot sustain itself based on his charisma a lone. Leia surely wont be recast out of respect for Carrie Fisher and that is rightfully deserved. So I ask with the utmost curiousity, what the hell is left for Episode 9 to even explore?

livelove
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by livelove »

@philamental, @martryn:
I can agree with almost everything you wrote.
kudos for the very interesting conversation going on above, which I hope you are inclined to continue ...

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