Sexism in Hollywood?

Introduce yourself to the community or chat with other users about whatever is on your mind
TheDenizen
Posts: 1638
3114 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:51 pm

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by TheDenizen »

Holy quotefest, Batman!

Dorkovsky
Posts: 339
41943 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:15 am

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Dorkovsky »

Ah ok, Rufflesack yes, I see what you are saying, the patriarchy hurts men and our racial institution can affect whites, but it is always about what is "expected" in our current culture. Gender roles go both ways, and men are also forced to abide by them. I don't deny that.

Same with race as well, but the point I was making (perhaps I used hyperbole to express it) is that being white and male gives you such a huge advantage in American culture and to be in denial about it is just as bad, if not worse, then yelling slurs because the former mentality is far more systematic and institutionalized and hurts minorities in much more real and practical ways. As a white, you will only get called honky or cracker. You can still get better jobs, better pay and hassled far less by cops. To bring up "racism against whites" is petty and self-centered compared to actual social justice causes.

btw all this applies only to America (and a decent portion of the western world obv.)

ShogunRua
Posts: 3449
0 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by ShogunRua »

cameron326 wrote:ShogunRua
Tell me, is it a tragedy that most fashion designers or wedding planners are women? Clearly, men have been the victim of horrible sexism in those two industries, correct?


I've made clear more than once that I'M ONLY referring to the creative arts - music, film, art, literature.


What's wrong with considering fashion a creative art as well? Who are you to make such judgments for other people (women) and the things they choose to be passionate about?

cameron326 wrote:If you went in a bookstore and 87% of the novels were written by men, wouldn't you think that was a bit strange? Would that be a desirable state of affairs? I don't see why women should be able to write fantastic novels but, apart from the odd exception, are unable to direct films.


It's a separate discussion, but actually, if you look at great novels by any metric, men vastly outnumber women in literature, too. And unlike movies, which requiring producers raising millions of dollars, writing is something that can be done by anyone.

Oh, and not to mention the major publishing houses are all run by women, and cater to women as their primary demographic. (They read for pleasure more than men do)

And yet, all the best writers are still men. Are you going to blame that on sexism too, or are you finally going to wake up to the possibility that yeah, maybe women and men are just fascinated by different careers and pursuits? I completely agree with what Pickpocket wrote in the following paragraph;

Pickpocket wrote: And another thing, when I was in band there was only 1 girl trumpet player. This was in 5-6 grades. All the girls wanted to play flute, clarinet, etc. Maybe they are just intrinsically more attracted to those instruments. And what's wrong with that, quit telling people how to live.


Rufflesack-

Rufflesack wrote:ShogunRua even seems to be at the point where he openly agrees with the fact that there is sexism in Hollywood/the movie industry. The only reasons this bickering is still going on is that people are presenting half-baked arguments for him to shoot down. Like this one:


Actually, I'm saying I don't know. While I have a couple of friends that were screenwriters back when I lived in Los Angeles, I have never actually worked in Hollywood myself. So how can I say either way?

However, while I'm open to the possibility of sexism in Hollywood, as you noted, I need some real evidence and legit arguments to convince me. Branding a giant group of people bigots is a serious statement to make, and needs something more than the dreadful and irrelevant arguments cameron has made.

Besides which, he hasn't worked in Hollywood either, so I'm curious why he is so certain.

cagedwisdom
Posts: 827
2090 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:44 pm

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by cagedwisdom »

Personally, I don't give half a shit about whether or not there is sexism in Hollywood in the sense that it's someone's workplace, not any more than I care about sexism in the workplace in general (which there has demonstrably been certain places) so I see no reason to focus on Hollywood in particular. What I do care about is the end product, the films.

I'm not sure I'd like to call it sexism but there is sure a skewed gender representation in movies, which is easily demonstrated with evidence. Personally I've made no claim beyond that, nor any claim to know why that is. I've been treating this as a discussion of sexism in movies rather than sexism in the movie industry up until this point so maybe I've just misunderstood the whole context. Either way I'm fairly glad I've not participated more actively. :P

What I was trying to point out there is that personally, I was on cameron's side generally speaking, but I still found it very hard to side with his (and others') argumentation. That tells me that someone seems to be doing a poor job of presenting their position, the point I was trying to make wasn't really on your position but I'm nonetheless sorry if I misrepresented it.

To put forward my frank opinion, I honestly think that most of the time where there is sexism or racism barely anyone involved in making that happen are actually bigots. I'd guess that mostly it just happens accidentally because it's part of our nature to discriminate somehow, lest we would never be able to make choices. Therefore, because I'm not particularly interested in sociology, I don't find that debate very interesting at all. It's for someone else to think about. I'm much more interested in discussing potential reasons why 83+% of movie protagonists are male, and potential implications of that fact. Because, y'know, I care a lot about films, and not so much sociology.

ShogunRua
Posts: 3449
0 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by ShogunRua »

Rufflesack wrote:Personally, I don't give half a shit about whether or not there is sexism in Hollywood in the sense that it's someone's workplace, not any more than I care about sexism in the workplace in general (which there has demonstrably been certain places) so I see no reason to focus on Hollywood in particular. What I do care about is the end product, the films.


Well, me too. As I mentioned earlier in the topic, I've never heard anyone calling out the French New Wave, German realism, or 70's Hollywood movements for having too many men.

Rufflesack wrote:To put forward my frank opinion, I honestly think that most of the time where there is sexism or racism barely anyone involved in making that happen are actually bigots. I'd guess that mostly it just happens accidentally because it's part of our nature to discriminate somehow, lest we would never be able to make choices. Therefore, because I'm not particularly interested in sociology, I don't find that debate very interesting at all. It's for someone else to think about. I'm much more interested in discussing potential reasons why 83+% of movie protagonists are male, and potential implications of that fact. Because, y'know, I care a lot about films, and not so much sociology.


I would just say it's not a topic women find particularly interesting. Getting past the demographics of various film schools (people go there for more jobs than just directing), how many women do you know that are seriously passionate about bringing screenplays to life? In my case, zero. With men, I can think of over half a dozen.

It's not like women make for universally awful directors (I've mentioned two I really love; Lina Wertmuller and Katheryn Bigelow), or they don't get the opportunity to make mainstream pictures (and they're usually awful), but rather, most aren't interested.

If someone wants to show there is sexism, they need to show this very natural explanation fails somehow.

cameron326
Posts: 153
1094 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:54 am

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by cameron326 »

@Pickpocket
Watch the credits for any film and kindly shut up.


I didn't bother reading the rest of your post after that line. That's not how a civilized person debates on a forum.

"Never wrestle with a pig. Both of you get dirty, but only one of you enjoys it". Bye.

Pickpocket
Posts: 1615
3024 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 2:20 pm

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Pickpocket »

cameron326 wrote:@Pickpocket
Watch the credits for any film and kindly shut up.


I didn't bother reading the rest of your post after that line. That's not how a civilized person debates on a forum.

"Never wrestle with a pig. Both of you get dirty, but only one of you enjoys it". Bye.

Yeah, it's cause you know I'm right. It turns out women have a lot to do with the production of movies.

Why aren't more men doing make up? Fucking sexist Hollywood!!!! Or could it be that more women enjoy this and therefore want to work in that field? Jesus Christ, get off your high horse.

Dorkovsky
Posts: 339
41943 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:15 am

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Dorkovsky »

Rufflesack wrote:To put forward my frank opinion, I honestly think that most of the time where there is sexism or racism barely anyone involved in making that happen are actually bigots. I'd guess that mostly it just happens accidentally because it's part of our nature to discriminate somehow, lest we would never be able to make choices. Therefore, because I'm not particularly interested in sociology, I don't find that debate very interesting at all. It's for someone else to think about. I'm much more interested in discussing potential reasons why 83+% of movie protagonists are male, and potential implications of that fact. Because, y'know, I care a lot about films, and not so much sociology.


Correct, as far as it being unintentional. Gender roles are the most ingrained kind of bigotry in our culture that even a child will say things like "throws like a girl" or call a girl a 'tomboy' or whatever but not know why they think that way. Men are going to be ostracized for wanting careers in wedding planning, interior design, cosmetology, etc not unlike women who go into decidedly "male" occupations (firefighting comes to mind). All these things are social restrictions, not biological.

on a related note,
I don't even think we've touched on the very obvious fact that Hollywood films are made to objectify women and create unrealistic standards, not just for beauty but for the role that women are "supposed" to play in our society. That is much harder to quantify but I also think it's harder to deny. Even the "strong female roles" require the character to be sexy.

Dorkovsky
Posts: 339
41943 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:15 am

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Dorkovsky »

^^^^^ drunkposting....


Happy st pattys day yall

paulofilmo
Posts: 2586
2428 Ratings
Your TCI: na
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by paulofilmo »

Anomaly1 wrote:
paulofilmo wrote:I remember watching a documentary (a Horizon style one--if anyone knows what it was, let me know) about genetics/altruism/the selfish gene, and one of the light-bulb moments boiled down to the willingness for men to take risks and live to extremes. They become businessmen, criminals, work on the stock market, commit suicide. While this may apply to the willingness to take responsibility of the role of Director, I think it's also germane to why we like male protagonists

The real question here is how much of that is a natural attribute of the sexes, and how much of that is instilled in us by society.


Saw this docu. reminded me of this convo.

Post Reply