Sexism in Hollywood?

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Pickpocket
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Pickpocket »

cameron326 wrote:
All this proves is that you are ignorant and not very knowledgeable of music. I can name 50+ female musicians off the top of my head and some of them are actually pretty good.


My instrument. Which happens to be the trumpet. Please name 50 world class female trumpet players off the top off your head - Ready . . . 3,2,1, GO! . . . .

All your response proves is that you don't read very carefully, do you?

Where in your post does it say you play trumpet? You literally said "I play an instrument." Are you such a narcissist that people are just supposed to know what the fuck you are talking about? Sorry that I can't read your mind! And most people can probably only name 1 trumpet player, Miles Davis (if that), so your point is once again terrible. And there's no way you can name 50 famous trumpet players without naming at least one woman. In fact I know that you can't even name 50, you're just exaggerating to make a stupid ass point.

kyle.loomis wrote:Name-calling is one of the least effective forms of racism. Overwhelming poverty, unemployment, incarceration rates, infant mortality, etc., these are all much more serious and as a white person you are completely safe from these prejudices.

Meh it's not really a prejudice when it's true you feel me? More minorities get locked up, are poor, and are unemployed. When I go to my next rich white meeting I will be sure to bring up how we can keep it this way. Am I supposed to constantly feel bad cause I went to college and tried to better myself and am white? You present a lot of problems but no solutions which is why I can never get behind this extreme lefist jerk off movement.

cameron326
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by cameron326 »

@ Pickpocket

This is my original post: look at the bit where it says MY instrument (which happnes to be the trumpet)
is tragedy. I play an instrument. If there were currently no worldclass female players of my instrument (there are at least half a dozen I can think of) I would consider it a tragedy.


Do you see the bit where it say MY instrument?

I did not say if there were no worldclass female musicians in general. I said if there were no worldclass players of my instrument. (which by the way happen to be the trumpet - not an important detail)

You then said if I couldn't name more than half a dozen world class musicians (when we are not talking about musicians, rather my instrument), this just proves I'm ignorant!!!

In conclusion,
Stop trying to cover your arse and just admit you didn't read my post carefully!!!
Last edited by cameron326 on Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

cameron326
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by cameron326 »

ShogunRua
Tell me, is it a tragedy that most fashion designers or wedding planners are women? Clearly, men have been the victim of horrible sexism in those two industries, correct?


I've made clear more than once that I'M ONLY referring to the creative arts - music, film, art, literature.
If you went in a bookstore and 87% of the novels were written by men, wouldn't you think that was a bit strange? Would that be a desirable state of affairs? I don't see why women should be able to write fantastic novels but, apart from the odd exception, are unable to direct films.

Dorkovsky
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Dorkovsky »

Pickpocket wrote:Meh it's not really a prejudice when it's true you feel me? More minorities get locked up, are poor, and are unemployed. When I go to my next rich white meeting I will be sure to bring up how we can keep it this way. Am I supposed to constantly feel bad cause I went to college and tried to better myself and am white? You present a lot of problems but no solutions which is why I can never get behind this extreme lefist jerk off movement.


And why are more minorities "locked up, poor, and unemployed"? Do you actually believe that these social ills are simply intrinsic based on the color of the skin? Of course you don't because that would be wildly racist. But it's that form of racist, the kind that doesn't yell slurs but rather one who chooses to ignore the oppressive institution, that is the major problem in America today.

The solution is (re-)education... it's up to the people of color to end their struggle, but as whites we can still try to make it easier for them.

cagedwisdom
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by cagedwisdom »

I was wondering why I tend to leave this forum and generally not come back. Then this thread. What a community we have over here. Such excellent, gentlemanly discussion where people hear each other out, respond to the points presented and don't put words in people's mouths. :roll:

@cameron
You're right that Pickpocket to a certain degree misunderstood and misrepresented what you originally said. What purpose do you think is served by presenting that fact in such an agressively tempered way? I know this is THE INTERNET and all but come on, it only exacerbates things.

"Hey Pickpocket, you misunderstood me - my point was that I was talking about one specific instrument, and it was irrelevant which instrument I was talking about, while you presented it as if I was talking about all instruments."

There. Why is this hard? I don't mean to pick on you particularly, as this topic in general reads to me now as a clusterfuck of people shouting opinions at each other to the point where I can't even tell whose on what side any more, which is a shame seeing as it's such an interesting topic for debate and one I actually happen to care about.

kyle.loomis wrote:You seem to have difficulty grasping a relatively simple premise. a Man denying the existence of Sexism is analogous to a White denying Racism. Of course you aren't going to experience it, but by not even acknowledging it makes you part of the problem w/r/t women's rights movement.

You're handing your opposition points to use against you here, man. Yes, it is analogous. But it's preposterous to presume that whites can not experience racism just as it is to presume that men can not, or have not, experienced sexism. Presenting it this way allows ShogunRua to take this point, focus on the half of it that doesn't make sense, respond to that and appear to have responded to your point when he hasn't at all.

By the way, if you subscribe to the part of the feminist movement which seems to think that all gender inequality is skewed in favor of men then you are part of the problem. Not saying you are, but taking your statement here to the natural extreme (men cannot experience sexism) you kinda seem to be.

ShogunRua even seems to be at the point where he openly agrees with the fact that there is sexism in Hollywood/the movie industry. The only reasons this bickering is still going on is that people are presenting half-baked arguments for him to shoot down. Like this one:

cameron326 wrote:Where is the "hard evidence" that Catherine Hardwicke was snubbed because she's a rubish director rather than being a woman? There is none.

This is such a terrible point I just have to bring it up. Guess what, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You claim that she was snubbed because she is a woman, you need to present the evidence for that. Without such evidence, the natural assumption is that she was not snubbed for being a woman. Innocent until proven guilty. The fact that there is no hard evidence against it is irrelevant.

cameron326
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by cameron326 »

@ Rufflesack
Pickpocket completely misunderstood/didn't bother to read my point. Instead he said to me:

Are you such a narcissist that people are just supposed to know what the fuck you are talking about? Sorry that I can't read your mind!

This is what I said in reply to this:
Stop trying to cover your arse and just admit you didn't read my post carefully!!!

I admit I could have put it a nicer way. But not only did Pickpocket completely misrepresent what I said. He used the 'f' word and called me a narcissist in response. I really don't think I particularly overreacted under those circumstances. That you would pick me out as an example of poor forum etiquette under these circumstances is hilarious. Also, please note, I DID try to point out where he had misrepresented without using the phrase "cover your arse" but he STILL wouldnt admit his error. To be honest, some people don't WANT to understand what point you're trying to make. They just want to throw out insults. And Pickpocket isn't the only one on this thread who seems to fall under that category.

This is such a terrible point I just have to bring it up. Guess what, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.


I've no idea if Hardwicke is a good director or not. I've no idea if she was snubbed for being a woman or not. Frankly, I'm now beyond caring. I merely used that point in order to try to make a slightly different, but related, point that has got completely lost in the midst of all the bitching. It probably was a terrible point. I've got no problem admitting I can be wrong and have probably made a bunch of bad arguments on this thread.

I'm not used to this kind of forum "discussion" and don't think I'll bother next time either. It's clearly bringing out the worse in everyone. I agree with you that its an interesting topic which is why I started this thread, my first on this website. I really didn't have an axe to grind one way or another. Wish I hadn't bothered.

sally
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by sally »

It is quite clear that some people dont understand the point of a discussion. It is very normal that people see things differently, especially things they dont really know. We are all making judgements on our understanding of this topic. Nobody really know the answer even if you work in Hollywood! It is just quite an interesting topic, nobody needs to prove anything. I believe the person who started this topic just wanted to start a nice discussion with people who like English. The way you say things actually showed people how convincing your statements are. I have commented yet. I am used to talking on forums. I have been reading since this topic was started. It seems that a few people on this thread are really quite childish! Although I dont agree with everything cameroon326 said, he seems to be one of the only posters at least trying to debate in a repectful manner. If you just want to find people agree with you, and cant stand that there are people who dont, then maybe you should just be quiet here next time. :geek:

Pickpocket
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Pickpocket »

cameron326 wrote:
I've made clear more than once that I'M ONLY referring to the creative arts - music, film, art, literature.
If you went in a bookstore and 87% of the novels were written by men, wouldn't you think that was a bit strange? Would that be a desirable state of affairs? I don't see why women should be able to write fantastic novels but, apart from the odd exception, are unable to direct films.

Well now you are acting like women have no part in movie making in general. Watch the credits for any film and kindly shut up. Just because they aren't directing in overwhelming numbers doesn't mean they aren't involved with other aspects of film production. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

cameron326 wrote:I did not say if there were no worldclass female musicians in general. I said if there were no worldclass players of my instrument. (which by the way happen to be the trumpet - not an important detail)

Yes, and how are we supposed to know what YOUR instrument is. It's important because if you play guitar/bass then your point is incredibly lame cause I probably could name 50 women guitarists if I really tried.


cameron326 wrote:You then said if I couldn't name more than half a dozen world class musicians (when we are not talking about musicians, rather my instrument), this just proves I'm ignorant!!!

Nope. I said you can't name 50 trumpet players. Maybe you can with the help of google but you def couldn't off the top of your head. And another thing, when I was in band there was only 1 girl trumpet player. This was in 5-6 grades. All the girls wanted to play flute, clarinet, etc. Maybe they are just intrinsically more attracted to those instruments. And what's wrong with that, quit telling people how to live.

kyle.loomis wrote:And why are more minorities "locked up, poor, and unemployed"? Do you actually believe that these social ills are simply intrinsic based on the color of the skin? Of course you don't because that would be wildly racist. But it's that form of racist, the kind that doesn't yell slurs but rather one who chooses to ignore the oppressive institution, that is the major problem in America today.

The solution is (re-)education... it's up to the people of color to end their struggle, but as whites we can still try to make it easier for them.

yeah yeah yeah. I know what you're saying but what am I supposed to do? Quit my job and dedicate my life to the plight of the black man? There's a fucking black president they have had plenty of time to get over whatever has been holding them back. It's also just not as bad as you are making it out to be. And America isn't as racist as you think it is. Oprah, hello? In no other country could she be as wildly successful as she is here.

Rufflesack wrote:You're right that Pickpocket to a certain degree misunderstood and misrepresented what you originally said.

you're right I really couldn't understand him with all his high brow theories and big fancy words. Good point. :roll:

paulofilmo
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by paulofilmo »

Anomaly1 wrote:
paulofilmo wrote:I remember watching a documentary (a Horizon style one--if anyone knows what it was, let me know) about genetics/altruism/the selfish gene, and one of the light-bulb moments boiled down to the willingness for men to take risks and live to extremes. They become businessmen, criminals, work on the stock market, commit suicide. While this may apply to the willingness to take responsibility of the role of Director, I think it's also germane to why we like male protagonists

The real question here is how much of that is a natural attribute of the sexes, and how much of that is instilled in us by society.

Absolutely. This documentary suggested a biological cause for traits which can be selected for and then reinforced by society.

cameron326 wrote:I'm not used to this kind of forum "discussion" and don't think I'll bother next time either. It's clearly bringing out the worse in everyone. I agree with you that its an interesting topic which is why I started this thread, my first on this website. I really didn't have an axe to grind one way or another. Wish I hadn't bothered.

Please don't be put off. I sympathise and request that you make use of the ignore function.

Alon Reter
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Re: Sexism in Hollywood?

Post by Alon Reter »

Has anyone here ever heard of the film theorist Laura Mulvey and her essay "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema"?
I don't really have time to explain it now but if anyone else has heard of it and can explain it will really improve this discussion.

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