Sexism in Hollywood?

[Anomaly]

Hollywood reflects a lot of bad things about American society, especially considering that it's run by a bunch of rich old men, so while disappointing it's not unexpected.

Also YMMV but when I was in film school there was a pretty even mix of men and women.

[KGB]

Also YMMV but when I was in film school there was a pretty even mix of men and women.

I was going to post the same thing. Maybe even more women than men in my case.

[Dorkovsky]

"well there might be widespread and systematic discrimination, oppression and objectification of women, buuut you are going to have to prove it"

*is male*

[JohnSandwich]

Well, maybe I am sexist, then. It occurs to me though, from a male's perspective, that if I were a female and was looking for solid realistic career opportunities, I would not choose the one consisting of 83% males, a fair % of which might judge me on the fact that I was a woman rather than my merits.

Why not? If you were good at something and it made you happy, why wouldn't you pursue it as a career?

It certainly didn't stop blacks from going into the once traditionally white games of basketball or baseball, or women in everything from biology, medicine, to business.

Besides, I'd love to hear about the supposed "fear and intimidation" women face in film school, according to you. Should be good for a laugh, especially considering how open and encouraging film programs in the US are towards minorities and women.

And aren't you from Norway?

Jesus, you are tiresome. And you say I'm a troll. Why not include the entire quote? And give it a rest with the goddamn basketball stuff. Also, I never said all women are "intimidated" by entering a male-dominated profession, I said "for a woman it can be" - which I assume it can. The point I was trying to make was not about physical intimidation or whatever you seem to imply anyway, it was more apprehension regarding if she would be treated the same (good or bad) and given same opportunities as male colleagues. I'd love to hear how you can assert that no woman entering the business trying to make it as a director could never have those "fears".

And yes, I am from Norway. And no, I didn't originally give even a shade of a fuck about what was going on with this whole sexism in Hollywood thing, i just find you to be an insufferable clown and got sucked into your usual clownweb.

And it is strange that so many more directors are men, given that it is at least in part a creative profession, which women seem to like otherwise (well, I don't have numbers or facts on that, but seems like it should be true).

Some creative professions appeal more to women (let's say fashion), and others more to men. (let's say metal music...or chess) Why is that so difficult to understand?

Why is it so difficult to post the entire quote? Oh, that's right, because you are constantly trying to belittle and show up whoever you "debate" with. I don't know if I can agree with your examples, either - I think fashion appeals plenty to men already (not just gay men), and once it becomes more accepted and non-gay to work in fashion for a straight man, then probably more men will work in fashion. I mean obviously on the designer side men are doing well already. Point is all those examples isn't necessarily boiled down to "girl just not interested in it, boy interested in it", it might for both just be "not interested in it yet" or "already interested but outnumbered making it seem like they aren't interested" or other reasons.

And I don't think it is the case regarding the profession of film director. Why is that so difficult to understand? I'd like you to explain exactly what it is about film directing that makes it in your opinion basically without appeal to women?

I mean "metal music" has a certain testosterone aspect, and "fashion" has a certain playing-with-Barbie aspect - film directing seems fairly neutral.

I just think the job of film director isn't a n example of that.

And what's your reason for this? Beyond just a gut feeling?

See above. Also: And what's your reason for thinking it is an example of that? Beyond just a gut feeling?

I'd say women both are attracted to and do well in the creative arts in general, why would they suddenly be almost universally like "OMG film director that sounds CRAP!".

I have not made one single sweeping statement on this issue, nor do I believe anyone else has. The point has been argued that there MIGHT be sexism in Hollywood.

Yes, and in reply, I asked for some evidence. Most people responded to, and tried to make arguments, even if they weren't the best. (Catherine Hardwick comes to mind)

Ever struck you he wasn't looking to get put on trial and just wanted to discuss a little? Not everyone is looking to fight all the damn time. No one cares that you hate Catherine Hardwicke everyone does, his point was that her answer was "The film must be directed by a man" rather than "The film must be directed by anyone that is not you". Whether the example was good or not, who cares at this point.

But of all the people who have disagreed with me, you're the only one who has resorted to mostly petty trolling.

That's rich. And of all people you have disagreed with, quite a few people in this thread alone, you have never addressed any one with less than a condescending tone, that I've seen.

Why you find this so absurd is beyond me.

I find most of the argumentation absurd, not the statement itself.

I totally agree, in fact; there might be sexism in Hollywood. Why the hell not? But if you're writing that, present some real evidence, not wild conjecture that is either irrelevant or factually inaccurate.

What wild conjecture, what was irrelevant, what was factually inaccurate? Sum it up for me please, all I can recall is "Hey guys what's up with Hollywood, is there sexism going on?" answered by "WTF ARE YOU CRAZY GIRLS DON'T WANT TO BE DIRECTORS, SHOW ME SOME EVIDENCE YOU WARPED LOGIC HAVING MOTHERFUCKER OMGWTF GTFO".

[ShogunRua]

Some more intresting stats:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacy-smi ... 80848.html

When only males were at the helm, the percentage of females on-screen was 29.3%. For films with a female director, the number jumped to 44.6%!

Probably because more women direct "chick flicks" or romantic comedies, and obviously, those have more female characters.

Not everything has to be explained away by an "-ism".

Although active/conscious sexism might be much less than it once was in Hollywood, the damage has already been done - as a result of beliefs and practices in less enlightened times.

This belief that women are no good at making films/working behind the scenes now operates at the ground level subconsciously - with the result that women don't even consider getting into films seriously in the first instance - ie studying film.

Where are you getting the evidence for this narrative from? I have never heard anyone say that women are no good at making films!

Throughout this topic, you have been grasping at straws, whether it's IMDB fan voting or the Catherine Hardwicke example that even the people who generally agree with you thought was ridiculous.

Topic title aside, you clearly do believe that there is rampant sexism in Hollywood, in which case I ask...where is the hard evidence? You have yet to present it.

It is tragedy. I play an instrument. If there were currently no worldclass female players of my instrument (there are at least half a dozen I can think of) I would consider it a tragedy. Why? Because women in the arts (notice I'm not talking about basketball, maths, gardening or anything else here) are as capable as men. Therefore if I can think of thirty famous male musicians (which I can) but can't name a single female musicians something is wrong. Why? because this suggests that women are not learning the instrument in the first place or being held back in some other way.

Either way, the result is that a whole bunch of talented people - in this case women - are not getting involved in the thing that I love. A huge amount of potential is remaining undiscovered or going to waste. That is necessarily a bad thing.

Have you ever considered that maybe women aren't interested in the same things you are?

What if a woman doesn't WANT to become a director? What if that same woman wants to apply her talents and abilities in some other field, whether it's medicine, fashion, etc?

You're saying that's both wrong and a "tragedy"? No, I don't believe it is.

Hollywood reflects a lot of bad things about American society, especially considering that it's run by a bunch of rich old men, so while disappointing it's not unexpected.

No no no, it's "rich old white men", which is just a synonym for "pure bigoted evil".

Odd thing is, most people who write this are white men coming from well-to-do families who will become old in a few decades. So what happens to them, then? Do they look themselves in the mirror and call themselves evil?

Also YMMV but when I was in film school there was a pretty even mix of men and women.

Interesting. I'm only going by the film schools that I know here in California; perhaps it's not true elsewhere?

If that's the case, maybe 10-20 years from now we will be seeing far more female directors?

GIANT, ANGRY, PISSED-OFF POST

To quote yourself from earlier in this topic, "LOL, U MAD?"

Clearly, when someone goes that far off the deep end, you know you've won the argument, haha.

[Dorkovsky]

Being white and male isn't inherently "evil" but actively working towards ensuring our privileged elite status is.

[JohnSandwich]

Yes, people like you make me mad. The tactic you used now made me mad. Not so much because of the evading of what I wrote, but because you entirely changed it, with your "clever rewriting". I wasn't pissed-off in the post, I was defeated and tired which was quite clear by its tone. Ofc you don't care one way or another as long as you get to fight with people until they give up, so whatever. I give up, you win.

[Anomaly]

Interesting. I'm only going by the film schools that I know here in California; perhaps it's not true elsewhere?

If that's the case, maybe 10-20 years from now we will be seeing far more female directors?

My experience is from New York state; interesting to see it is the opposite over there. Seems to imply the closer to Hollywood, the more ingrained traditional gender roles in the industry is.

If aforementioned attitudes towards gender roles changes in the next 10-20 years, then yes, but apparently high amounts of female students have been attending such programs for a while now, and nothing is changing.

Being white and male isn't inherently "evil" but actively working towards ensuring our privileged elite status is.

Also this.

[paulofilmo]

Did some Googling after it seemed like a lot of Theatre director interviews were with women.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/ap ... er.theatre

"We live in a genius culture. It manifests itself as the all-seeing, all-knowing artistic director whom everyone serves. It's the idea of a visionary - untouchable and inevitably male. Women are uncomfortable about this image because it is not rooted in collaboration, or indeed reality.

Having more women running buildings means there will be a shift. The old-fashioned male style of leadership has the artistic director coming up with projects, and then everyone doing them. I don't work like that. I lead on the projects that I'd like to direct, but there are seven or eight different voices in there right from the beginning.

I've never felt any gender bias, but I do sense a change. I've always been struck by how many really strong women work in theatre - people like Fiona Clark, the producer at the Bush - but few of them are artistic directors. Perhaps it's to do with women supposedly being organised and nurturing rather than creative.

I've jumped in at the deep end. I haven't had experience of running smaller buildings first. Sometimes it's scary, particularly as there's public money at stake. But I don't see why I shouldn't learn on the job. I think women are often more cautious, whereas men just say: 'I know I can do that.' As more women take on these jobs and succeed, the question of gender in theatre will be a thing of the past."

"I couldn't do this job if I had a family. It's too full-on. Running a theatre is time-consuming. You get obsessed. I recognise that as a danger. When it comes to management, men and women are perceived differently. Men are allowed many different styles of operating; woman tend to be thought of as either nurturing or a bitch. It is as true in theatre as it is in the business world.

Also--and I've just skimmed this and the above--check the comments here:
http://augustasupple.com/2010/05/women- ... ing-forum/
I like:

I am known as “Gus” by friends and colleagues- and I have never found any significant difference in opportunities offered to me when I was writing as “Gus” as opposed to “Augusta”… I think I am bullied, criticised, harrassed and scrutinized not as a woman, but as an artist. I think the fact I am a woman gives some weak minded individuals a feeling that I may give up, or be more sensitive and therefore their harrassment/bullying will work.

I remember watching a documentary (a Horizon style one--if anyone knows what it was, let me know) about genetics/altruism/the selfish gene, and one of the light-bulb moments boiled down to the willingness for men to take risks and live to extremes. They become businessmen, criminals, work on the stock market, commit suicide. While this may apply to the willingness to take responsibility of the role of Director, I think it's also germane to why we like male protagonists

Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board. —Zora Neale Hurston, Their Eyes Were Watching God (1937)

[cameron326]

ShogunRua

Throughout this topic, you have been grasping at straws, whether it's IMDB fan voting or the Catherine Hardwicke example that even the people who generally agree with you thought was ridiculous.

I myself have admitted that was bad example. Sometimes, over the course of a discussion in order to explore a certain viewpoint people will make less than convincing arguments. The sensible thing is to point out that this example is unconvincing. Not use it to beat the other debaters over the head with for the rest of the debate. As others have pointed out, I didn't start a debate to be beaten over the head and patronised. People don't like debating with people with your way of debating, I'm afraid. It is not because you have superior inteleect it is because you present your argument in an aggressive, and infrequently personal, manner. (eg stupid argument, you're an idiot if you think . . . etc)
These are not good debating techniques.

Topic title aside, you clearly do believe that there is rampant sexism in Hollywood, in which case I ask...where is the hard evidence? You have yet to present it.

[/quote]

Where is the "hard evidence" that Catherine Hardwicke was snubbed because she's a rubish director rather than being a woman? There is none. Yet its bleeding obvious, isn't it? The evidence in favour of this claim is rather overwhelming. But please dont give me the "hard evidence" line. Debates don't work like that. The fact that Hardwickes films are rubbish doesnt constitue "hard evidence" against her either. There is no such thing as "hard" evidence. There are supporting statistics and evidence on both sides of the argument. See the climate change argument for example. It's about whose evidence is the more convincing and more likely to be true There are no magic facts that will spring out of the air and solve the debate conclousively in ones sides favour.
Never heard the expression "lies, damn lies and statistics"?