"Her"--LA vs Shanghai...US vs. the World

[Stewball]

I noticed the first time I watched Her that while Shanghai stood in as a future version of LA, it was also very much more polluted. Even some shots showing medium distance where smog shrouded. I'd heard that China's urban areas had that problem but didn't realize how severe it was.

Anyway, it occurs to me now to wonder if part of the reason for using Shanghai and LA was to make a statement, not so much about the smog in LA now or in the future (it's very much improved now over what it was in the '60s), but to point out how much worse it is in Shanghai now.

At least they weren't filming it last December when Shanghai's air quality index was over 500.

Then I found a chart from the World Health Organization in this article from last October ('13): http://qz.com/136606/here-are-the-worlds-worst-cities-for-air-pollution-and-theyre-not-the-ones-youd-expect/

Even Shanghai is paradise compared to India and southwestern Asia. And look at the US, at the bottom with the lowest rates. This is the first I've seen of this, it's incredible. The comparisons are stark.

If that is what Jonze was doing, way to go Her. And even if it wasn't, way to go anyway. How come this is the first I'm hearing of it. Way to go US.

[ShogunRua]

Not really a surprise; most Asian countries worry very little about pollution or air quality. There is a reason many wear surgical masks when walking outside.

As for why you didn't know that the US is actually quite good in that regard, it's because it doesn't fit the dominant ideological narrative, and there is nothing to be gained by it. With a very strong liberal environmental movement constantly claiming that those "evil corporations" are destroying every aspect of the environment, admitting that US cities are actually superior in terms of air quality would add a level of balance to the discussion that they're not interested in.

By the way, as someone who suffers from absolutely horrid allergies and feels air quality very acutely, I can say that the 5 years I lived in LA County, the air was quite clean and healthy. Certainly, LA County and the Bay Area are an enormous improvement in that regard to Moscow, where I was born.

[Stewball]

Not really a surprise; most Asian countries worry very little about pollution or air quality. There is a reason many wear surgical masks when walking outside.

As for why you didn't know that the US is actually quite good in that regard, it's because it doesn't fit the dominant ideological narrative, and there is nothing to be gained by it. With a very strong liberal environmental movement constantly claiming that those "evil corporations" are destroying every aspect of the environment, admitting that US cities are actually superior in terms of air quality would add a level of balance to the discussion that they're not interested in.

By the way, as someone who suffers from absolutely horrid allergies and feels air quality very acutely, I can say that the 5 years I lived in LA County, the air was quite clean and healthy. Certainly, LA County and the Bay Area are an enormous improvement in that regard to Moscow, where I was born.

Yeah, I knew it was there, I just didn't know the extent of the difference. According to former left-wing director David Mamet, there are a lot of closet right-wing directors in Hollywood, at least on political and economic issues--because they have to deal with the realities of those issues when making a movie; while the actors can ride limos and Learjets to their fortified castles in the sky--and think nothing of it....or of anything.

[cameron326]

Perhaps a bit unfair to state that Asian countries care little about air quality or pollution. Taking China as an example, yes currently these factors are terrible, but just because there are currently very poor environmental practices by factories and industry (some of whom are knowngly acting illegally) doesn't mean that these are not big issues and concerns with most of the population and indeed the government (which struggles to enforce many existing environmental policies). From personal experience, I would say Chinese people in their day to day lives are as environmentally conscious, if not more so, than inhabitants of many Western countries. And indeed across the country there are hundreds probably thousands of local demonstrations against poor environmental practices per year. From food safety, to car emissions, to water and air pollution, Government and citizens are keenly aware of the environmental toll and is trying to tackle these as a matter of urgency. Eg, China is among the countries leading the way in implementing renewable/clean enery sources and investing in research. Not to say there isnt also comsiderable heeldragging on quotas and restrictions that would harm the economy, but that is the case in every single nation that relies heavily on manufacturing. Also, lets not forget that, per head, China still pollutes a lot less than the vast majority of Western nations.

[ShogunRua]

Perhaps a bit unfair to state that Asian countries care little about air quality or pollution. Taking China as an example, yes currently these factors are terrible, but just because there are currently very poor environmental practices by factories and industry (some of whom are knowngly acting illegally) doesn't mean that these are not big issues and concerns with most of the population and indeed the government (which struggles to enforce many existing environmental policies). From personal experience, I would say Chinese people in their day to day lives are as environmentally conscious, if not more so, than inhabitants of many Western countries. And indeed across the country there are hundreds probably thousands of local demonstrations against poor environmental practices per year. From food safety, to car emissions, to water and air pollution, Government and citizens are keenly aware of the environmental toll and is trying to tackle these as a matter of urgency. Eg, China is among the countries leading the way in implementing renewable/clean enery sources and investing in research. Not to say there isnt also comsiderable heeldragging on quotas and restrictions that would harm the economy, but that is the case in every single nation that relies heavily on manufacturing. Also, lets not forget that, per head, China still pollutes a lot less than the vast majority of Western nations.

This post is hilarious on so many levels. You're seriously arguing that the People's Republic of China, a tyrannical government that arrests people for Internet posts critical of their communist rule, is powerless to impose basic environmental standards on cars, factory emissions, etc?

Bullshit. The reality is simply that they don't give a damn. They pay lip service to it so that gullible Westerners like yourself believe them. But their actions make it clear what their actual goals are.

[cameron326]

This post is hilarious on so many levels. You're seriously arguing that the People's Republic of China, a tyrannical government that arrests people for Internet posts critical of their communist rule, is powerless to impose basic environmental standards on cars, factory emissions, etc?

First off, that's not what I said at all, is it? Almost the very opposite in fact. So we're not off to a good start. Secondly, judging by your "tyrannical government" comment and your implication that they are all powerful, I think you misunderstand the nature of political power in China, particularly the relationship between provincial and central government.

As is explained in this paper if you can be bothered to read it (http://www.eai.nus.edu.sg/EWP153.pdf) the decentralization process that began around the time of Deng Xiaoping has started to reverse over the last decade, as the CCP tries to reinforce an effective regulatory frame. And indeed some things such as the media have always been under strict central control. But this idea that China is ruled by an all-seeing all powerful Central tyrannical government controlling all aspects of political decisions across the country is a total myth perpetuated to an extent by Western medias poor understanding of the country, preferring simple demonization of the CCP over nuanced fact based reporting, which is of course lapped up by gullible Westerners with no knowledge of how the country works.

[ShogunRua]

Meandering fluff

All of this is very much besides the point. If the PRC genuinely cared about pollution, they would have done something about it. Instead, China pollutes (even per capita) far more than most industrialized nations and has horrible air quality. Simple as that.

And no need to link to studies irrelevant to that basic fact.

[cameron326]

Well if we take CO2 emissions per capita as an example, guess what? You're totally wrong. US is around 10th per capita, and China is 55th. The vast majority of industrialized nations are also worse than China. Congrats on being spectacularly wrong once more!

[cameron326]

Have to also say that claiming "if X cared about Y they would have done something about it" is a really stupid argument.

Let's see. The US has many gun deaths = they don't care about gun crime. Many Chinese people are poor = they don't care about money. Or could it be that there just might be OTHER factors also at play? Come on, this is really poor stuff even by your standards!

[ShogunRua]

Well if we take CO2 emissions per capita as an example, guess what? You're totally wrong. US is around 10th per capita, and China is 55th. The vast majority of industrialized nations are also worse than China. Congrats on being spectacularly wrong once more!

CO2 emissions have nothing to do with air quality, and are a horrible measure of pollution.

Here is an actual statistic, not the cherry-picked, irrelevant nonsense you keep spewing out;

http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries ... pollution/

China is tied for 15th-16th worst, with an annual mean of 98 PM10 ug/m3 (the world average is 71).

Meanwhile, the United States is the 7th BEST in the world, with an annual mean of just 18 PM10 ug/m3.

Have to also say that claiming "if X cared about Y they would have done something about it" is a really stupid argument.

The US has many gun deaths = they don't care about gun crime. Many Chinese people are poor = they don't care about money.

Neither of your counterexamples disproves my point. In the US, the politicians want there to be as many gun deaths as possible (they play them up at every opportunity!), as it can be used for political cache. And in China, the government doesn't give a damn how many of its people are poor.

Meanwhile, let's look at things that China actually cares about. They care about censoring criticism of their communist government. They're fucking amazing at this! Dissidents are jailed, placed on house arrest, the Internet is censored, propaganda is everywhere, etc.

China also cared about having the most gold medals at the Olympic Games. This seemed like a wild notion 20 years ago; they had no history in most sports, and without state programs and supports (including having top athletes marry one another and then producing children that would become athletes themselves), Chinese athletes wouldn't make the top 20 countries in the world. But nevertheless, they succeeded.

Yet, you're arguing that China couldn't curb pollution if it really wanted to with new standards and enforcement, something the far less powerful and strict US government managed to?! That's imbecilic.